We had a really cool fun scary walk yesterday. We went to a secret patch of land with unique features, like creeks and fences, that make it a pretty good candidate for letting Gustav run free. He was doing pretty good: maybe 80% compliance when asked to come when called. Obviously not good enough to warrant letting him off in places where we might see people or other dogs because I guarantee he would be gone while I shouted apologies from afar. But he kept up with us and stayed fairly close by. If he weren't such a jerk I would let him off more often, that's how Dottie learned to be a great off-leash dog. She wasn't perfect. but with lots of practice she is very nearly perfect off leash now. Even if she did stray and go up to someone or some dog, it wasn't a big deal like it would be with Gustav. Our old dog Morgan who died a few years ago was also very helpful in teaching this skill to Dottie, I hope she can now help teach Gustav the skill of staying within a certain range of your people even in the face of distractions.
We also saw a coyote, which was exciting and a little scary, in my humble opinion. It wasn't that far off and stared at us picturesquely from a ridge. Not sure if the dogs saw it or not, but they were definitely leashed up while we looked at it.
Excited to think about a few years down the road, because I feel reasonably confident we can do stuff like this more often and less "training." I'm not really a training nut, I don't really love dog sports or anything. I just want dogs that are trustworthy in the woods, can handle visitors, and can take a neighborhood walk/jog without major problems. Come on, Gustav! You can do it!
The dogs are still exhausted and smell like the creek.
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I love that smell, brings flash backs of our adventure in the woods!
ReplyDeleteI love watching them take in the freedom and enjoy themselves.
Then again, I did have a couple fosters who were totally different dogs once (diagnosed by vet-behaviourist) prescribed seratonin uptake inhibitors (clomicalm, fluoxetine...)during the time we worked on counter conditioning that helped those dogs with their anxiety until they learned the big world is filled with lots of fun stuff too.
Just takes time.
I have complete confidence in Gustav as well!
ReplyDeleteReally, you're doing a great job building a history of good stuff happening on a daily basis.
He's doing his best job of letting people know when something concerns him and everyone is respecting it, it's not being repressed, so really...it's all good.
I do find that natures does seem to soothe their souls. It's great you guys got out and gave him the opportunity to show you that he enjoys bombing around and checking in.
I know you read Patricia McConnell's blog too: I've been thinking about her "needs of a dog" post: novelty, exercise, mental stimulation, and choice. Not surprisingly, a walk in the woods off leash provides all of those four things. I talked about this with my brother, who has a two-year-old (human), and he says he's taken the "novelty" portion to heart as well, and has tried to take his son to different parks and so on. He says it makes a big difference in my nephew's behavior.
ReplyDeleteI know you sometimes use a line for added security when off-leash. What kind do you use? Any tips? I use a long rope for Gustav at the park sometimes, but honestly I find it pretty cumbersome and don't use it all that often. He'd get more exercise if I had a better system that I was confident in. Even though I live in the city, there are lots of little hobo woods tucked away here and there in my neighborhood.
Also curious about your fosters and the use of drugs: we've considered it for Gustav and Nancy (our vet) has offered, but declined to give a good opinion on whether she thinks we should or not (she's a great vet that way: never pushes her own agenda, always respects the agency and intelligence of the owner. Still, sometimes I just want to be told what to do!). The behaviorist was similarly on the fence. We decided not to for a while, because he's not emotionally crippled by the outside, and can frequently be quite comfortable. Of course, if it would help a lot, I would be totally open to it.
I use a 10ft cat leash, it's really thin and light so it doesn't seem to get caught, not long enough to get tangled. I just bought it in the grocery store in the pet department.
ReplyDeleteReally it's for my piece of mind when we're in the forest.
I've only used the drugs if I saw that they needed that little extra help to keep things together.
I swear by DAP...which I use when ALL foster dogs come into my home. I don't consider it a drug, but I do start here before trying medication.
http://www.petcomfortzone.com/comfortzone_dap.php
Have you tried that? You can buy it in spray form, spray it on a bandana and put it around their neck 30min before going on a walk, or I had a plug in diffuser that I used in home.
I swear by that to help fosters and my guys just take the edge off. No drowsy side effects.
re: SSRI's
It's not magic, it takes a few weeks to build up in their body
but it has enabled dogs to not have to succumb to their rush of adrenalin and they just stay with you long enough so they can hear you when you guide them through to learn a different M.O.
It doesn't drug them at all. That was my worry, but no signs of slowing down, instead of the same, anxiety, they're just able to hold things together.
It just keeps them on their normal relaxed state a little while longer. Then you slowly wean them off.
It's really up to you.
sorry for clogging up your comment section, but regarding in the woods off leash time, I wrote a blog about that the other day and listed some games I play while in the woods.
ReplyDeletehttp://happy-houndz.blogspot.com/2010/04/we-found-couple-more-secret-spots-to.html
I find if you can be a part of the fun, then they check in with you more often. You don't end up saying the same thing all the time....Come, come....I always hear my mom's voice...when a child having fun...hearing your mom say come = the fun ends....
In my humble opinion, I think a history of you being a part of the fun, and not a spoil sport makes a huge difference.
http://happy-houndz.blogspot.com/2010/04/we-found-couple-more-secret-spots-to.html
Oh, rats. I had written a comment before but I guess it didn't post.
ReplyDeleteIn short: I've used the DAP plug-in but it turned Dottie into a little junkie and she just lived under the futon in the room it was in and licked her lips. It was hard even to just get her to go outside to pee.
In terms of the spray, I looked into it and was curious: is there a brand difference? I saw two kinds and one was a lot cheaper but I wasn't sure if it was as good. I think it would be a good idea for both of them, honestly.
that's hilarous re: Junkie.....I can totally see it now thinking back.
ReplyDeleteI've only used Comfort Zone. I did notice today in the pet store that there's an essential oil "calming" spray but, and it was $20 instead of $40 for Comfort Zone.
I'm sitting on the fence on which to try myself. I thing George will benefit, I was also wondering if maybe it would change the way he smells to other dogs... and hopefully they won't be so pushy with him.
We had a really good day today in his last class, he was so relaxed and trusting other dogs again. I have to say a huge THANK YOU for posting about Dottie and throwing treats on the ground to distract her from the bum sniffing dog. I used that today when George started to puff up seeing a dog in the distance, so I threw treats on the ground and told him to go find it...sure enough he forgot all about the dog in the distance :) Give a big hug to Dottie too. If it wasn't for her, and your blog I wouldn't have remembered to try it!
Great, I'm happy to hear it! In my situation having two reactive dogs, the "toss the treats on the ground" trick has been invaluable. The behaviorist running her Feisty Fido class said some dogs respond better to the dynamic action of throwing treats, rather than just trying to hold their attention: definitely the case for Dottie. Only potential downfall is if the greeting dog starts eating them too, sometimes one of the dogs can get a little possessive. Depends on the situation, I guess.
ReplyDeleteI just ordered the DAP spray online-much cheaper that way.
I'm happy to hear George is doing well with other dogs: good for him and good for you! If you ever get a chance you should take a video of a strange dog greeting him and how you manage it. We're mostly still in the "feel comfortable from afar" stage.
It's funny, I've thrown treats ahead in hopes that the other dog will stop and chow down, and then in theory, I'd be retreating with honor...but other dogs don't stop for the treats, they just bomb past them, even last weekend I hit a min pin in the head with some of the peperoni that I threw ahead and it didn't blink an eye and just darted past me to get to George.
ReplyDeleteI thought of the food guarding, George can be like that too, but I think as long as you replenish the treats so there's lots on the ground before you can retreat with honor...
I'm trying to get a tripod for my flip so I can do that. It's a great way for me to watch to see what I'm doing to potentially make matters worst.
Head on greets are really tough on George, and don't have a high success rate as 9times out of 10 the other dog will put his head over George and look like they're about to mount him, or they'll just ignore George's ...hey it's time to move on and stop standing on top of me, so I try to avoid that position at all costs, and will rearrange him so that we're either walking beside the other dog, or in back of at a distance so the dog isn't focused on George, but they can sniff eachother out without having the stress of dealing with head on meets. That's when he just relaxes.
I'll take video when I'm out with a friend soon.
The key for use is trying to find a dog that is walked ON LEASH around here....
Ha ha, I hear you. Then there's the old "extinguish a behavior by trying to video tape it." Today I tried to video tape Gustav interacting with a yellow lab that lives behind us, such that they can meet through the fence pretty often. He had interacted a few times in a way that I thought would be helpful for my behaviorist to see (he's calm, low tail wag at first, then bark/lunge, and so on.) Of course, once I grabbed the camera he absolutely refused to acknowledge the other dog's existence.
ReplyDeleteSometimes off-leash dogs will actually sit if you make a big sweeping "sit" gesture with your arm and say "sit." Patricia McConnell has mentioned this. Then you have a few seconds to figure out what to do. This has actually worked for me in the past. I said "sit!" and the dog did and then I threw a handful of hot dogs behind the dog and made a getaway. It certainly hasn't worked all the time, but I'm shocked at how often it does.
With Gustav I can 100% guarantee he will pick a fight with a dog he meets while he's on leash, every single time. No guesswork there. So he's not ever allowed to meet a dog on leash, and off leash dogs quickly decide that he's not going to be any fun. Maybe someday . . .
For George when dogs are on leash... and owners have control of their dogs, this is pretty much what I do before I will have George meet another dog.
ReplyDeletehttp://happy-houndz.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2010-03-29T11%3A03%3A00-07%3A00
George is awesome with other dogs when he has time to hang out and figure out whether or not they're going to play rough with him.
He's been trampled one too many times by big adolescent dogs.
actually last year was the worst he ended up with a pinched nerve that debilitated him.
He was shaking and crying he was in so much pain. I couldn't walk him for a week it was so painful) he was on back relaxants and these anti-inflammatory/glucosamine shots every week for 4 weeks and rest. $597 vet bill as well...so I know he's got every right to be cautious around other dogs. I should have handed over the bill to the other dog's owner, but haven't seen them since.
It's changed his personality forever, and mine too.